\The fight for gay marriage has never been more thrillingly recorded than in the exciting and deeply moving documentary The Case Against 8 ( see my review in last week's WCT ), which tracks the course of the legal challenge to Prop 8 spearheaded by AFER ( Americans For Equal Rights ).
The film, which won the documentary director award at Sundance for its openly gay co-directors Ben Cotner and Ryan White, follows the case through the five years it took to reach the Supreme Court. Kris Perry and Sandy Stier, the vibrant lesbian couple selected ( along with their counterparts, the gay couple Jeff Zarrillo and Paul Katami ) as the plaintiffs in the case and the quietly enthusiastic Cotner were in town last week for an exclusive, packed screening of the film hosted by HBO ( where the documentary debuts this Monday, June 23—one year after Prop 8 was overturned ).
Windy City Times: Let's start with the vetting process. How did the whole thing come about because the film isn't real specific about that?
Kris Perry: It turned out that I knew Chad Griffen ( the gay activist who co-founded AFER ) from my years as an early child advocate and he was beginning to think about the case and he asked if Sandy and I had been married in that six month window when same-sex couples were allowed to do that in California and I said, "No we didn't—and there were lots of reasons why" and he said, "Well, we're thinking about what we might do about Prop 8—we may even do some kind of legal challenge" and that's how Sandy and I became aware of the case and we eventually became plaintiffs.
Sandy Stier: We weren't really involved in the vetting process; we didn't know if we fit their profile. All that we knew was that we believed in the strategy; that the court was the right place to take the argument and we believe in love and we believe we should have equal access to marriage. The vetting process was not in the front of our minds at all. What we were excited about was the prospect of the legal challenge.
Windy City Times: Was there any hesitation because Ted Olson, Bush's lawyer, was involved?
Kris Perry: You know, we had been through so many difficult chapters in California already—like losing at the ballot box—that when somebody like Ted Olson is interested in helping it really makes you think for a minute you may have a chance of winning. I know that his track record isn't one that progressives or liberals agree with but we were looking at a very narrow issue about equal protection under the Fourteenth Amendment, which obviously he's an expert at … and in thinking about a new way to go he was really the best person.
Windy City Times: This was a very long process—five years. Did you ever reconsider your decision? I mean, you actually signed up for both the legal battle and a concurrent reality show of sorts, with cameras recording your private lives.
Sandy Stier: I don't think we ever second-guessed our decision to be involved and we certainly never reconsidered the strategy, but there were certainly many moments that were very stressful, absolutely.
Windy City Times: Can you talk about what's happened in your lives in the year since Prop 8 was nullified?
Sandy Stier: Well, first we got married, of course, and at the same time we became newlyweds we became empty nesters, with our sons going off to college.
Windy City Times: How bittersweet!
Sandy Stier: It is very bittersweet. It's been a major transition point, no doubt but as Elliot pointed out when he and Spencer [their sons] were leaving, this is a new beginning for us, which in fact is has been. It's a really wonderful, exciting time. We're also so happy that marriage equality is coming so rapidly around the country.
Kris Perry: It's just fantastic. It's an honor to be here in Chicago just a few days after couples that have been together for 50 years were finally able to be married. It's thrilling.
Windy City Times: Are you excited to be able to get back to your own lives?
Kris Perry / Sandy Stier: We're so excited!
Kris Perry: You can't imagine. We fought so hard for our normal lives that we haven't quite gotten ourselves back to yet but only because great things are happening; it's all good but we are really looking forward to those simple pleasures.
Sandy Stier: I miss my Birkenstocks! [Everyone laughs.]
Now Ben Cotner sits down to discuss the film.
Windy City Times: Talk about tenacity—how much footage did you end up with after five years?
Ben Cotner: We have over 600 hours of footage so, obviously, we have a lot of outtakes. [Laughs]
Windy City Times: That in spite of the fact that the judge barred cameras in the courtroom—that must have been a difficult day when you heard about that.
Ben Cotner: We were saddened because we wanted people to see what was going on in that courtroom and certainly as filmmakers it might have been a lot easier to show them testifying as versus a creative way to exemplify what was going on in that courtroom. But at the same time it was a fun challenge as a filmmaker to do that.
Certainly, sitting there as a gay person in that courtroom hearing what Kris and Sandy and Jeff and Paul said was mind blowing for me. I had never heard anyone articulate the things that they were saying in such a clear and relatable way. And to do that in a federal courtroom and on the record so that the other side would have to answer to these things was a really profound moment for Ryan and I to see and we wanted to re-create that as faithfully as we could.
Windy City Times: It must be great to work so hard and so long on something and then to see audiences cheering for it.
Ben Cotner: Absolutely. It's been fun to be speaking out there about these things as a filmmaker; it's been liberating to be able to talk about these things and to have conversations with people who maybe don't agree and be comfortable in doing that.
I think one of the things that this case did was to draw the tenor of the conversation down from partisan, vitriolic debate to one where people can look at the facts and discuss it rationally. I think you see that in David Blankenhorn, the witness who testified on the stand that gays and lesbians shouldn't be allowed to marry and over the years evolved to the point where he completely changed his mind about it. A lot of that came from being in the courtroom and hearing people talk about those issues. Those calm conversations can really change a lot of hearts and minds.
Windy City Times: What has this meant for you, personally?
Ben Cotner: I was lucky enough to meet someone halfway through making this film. I wasn't someone who thought about marriage when we started; it wasn't particularly important to me so my feelings have evolved in a major way and now this is something that impacts me in a very immediate sense. I have nothing to announce [laughs]—still contemplating!
Windy City Times: I know you've been on the road with the film but have you thought about your next project?
Ben Cotner: I'm still developing a few projects; one that I'm going to start on as soon as we're finished promoting this one.
Windy City Times: Is it a gay and lesbian subject?
Ben Cotner: Tangentially. It's somewhat of a civil-rights story—a documentary. That's all I can say at this point.
Windy City Times: Well, thanks to you and Ryan for hanging in there for five years to record this historic case.
Ben Cotner: There were several moments when it was hard to be behind the camera after all that time because we'd grown so attached to all these people and to see them go through some of those challenging moments was tough at times. But yes, it was worth it. For me, I'm from Indiana and I feel like a lot of the people that were involved in the case did it for people like me who when we were young, growing up didn't have access to stories like this and who certainly didn't have access to these legal protections.
thecaseagainst8.com/ .
